This is something I've touched on a little bit in other posts, but haven't dedicated a post to. There are the usual ways of finding a borrower, from references to returned accounts to just having the information there. But when the immediate contact info runs out, what does a collector do from there?
This applies more to the line of business I work than others, since our loans have been in default for years. (I spoke to someone the other day who had made no payments on his loans since 1993. Really. No, he didn't pay me either.) The hunt now moves on to the world of skiptracing. The Private Eye part of the job. And, funny enough, the part of the job I'm actually good at.
We do get a number of tools to help us find people. For example, a credit report. Full report. It has former addresses, phone numbers, previous (or sometimes current) employers, and other loans and trade lines. All sorts of useful information to trace movements and figure out where someone might be.
We also have access to LexisNexis's people-finding database, which can be very useful. Phone numbers, contacts, jobs, vehicle registrations...all sorts of stuff. Which may or may not get us closer to the person. (I've found for my line of work the Lexis database of phone numbers is almost always disconnected.)
The most effective form of skiptracing is actually seeing what is available for free online. We leave digital footprints all over the place, even if we don't know it. Not all are useful, but some can be more useful than others.
First, a caveat - we cannot access social networking sites. I was told by management that this was due to some sort of lawsuit, but was told by fellow collectors it was actually due to collectors spending too much time on social networking sites monitoring their own social networking pages. So Facebook, MySpace, Twitter, MyLife, and other such sites are blocked. Though we can see the beginnings of the pages from the Google search summary - so if your latest MySpace comment is "Moved to Seattle - YAY!!!!" chances are I can see it simply from the Google hit. (Or, until this gets "fixed", I can view a cached version of MySpace pages if I use the Bing search engine rather than Google. I imagine that will vanish shortly, but I will abuse this loophole as much as I can until they close it.)
However, there is a treasure trove of other information on the web about people. I have found people through group affiliations on organization websites, news articles about contest winnings, job promotions, LinkedIn resumes, employer websites, and really awful fan-fiction. (I was trying to find someone who wrote ungodly amounts of pornographic 'Buffy The Vampire Slayer' fan-fic. Really.) In these situations, people want to be found, so it's all out there. Just a matter of looking for it.
Of course, finding someone doesn't mean they're going to pay you. Self-employed people are easy to find, since so much of owning a business is self-promotion. But without the threat of garnishment or tax seizure, what can you really hold them to? Not much. I've had more than one self-employed attorney laugh at me to pay on a 100K account. Because what can I do? Nothing.
(Some lines of business can go after professional licenses for non-payment, or some states have registration requirements based on credit reports. None of these apply to me.)
There is also the danger of getting lost in the sea of information, especially if you are easily distracted by stories and interesting trivia. I've found great reviews of borrowers' bands, stories of borrowers being world-ranked Pinball players, volumes of court cases and misdemeanor charges against borrowers, and borrowers who won State Fair prizes for their cheesecake recipes. All fascinating, none helpful. But I've always been a sucker for stories, and I get pulled in to reading about a traffic arrest or the opening of a borrower's restaurant. And fail to make enough phone calls.
But, to give you an idea of what I find - I have two Place of Employment calls to make on Monday. One I found through a hit from the corporate website corresponding to name and city (and it's a pretty unique name). The other I found through a LinkedIn profile. I also need to follow up with someone I found when they were named employee of the month at their local job. And I need to run a WHOIS scan on someone's small business website to see if they are also the registrant of the site and if there's a contact number.
The information age is a blessing and a curse. All depends on how much you want to not be found. Or how much someone is willing to try and find you. Off to try more of that tomorrow.
Saturday, February 27, 2010
Snapshot of why collectors are suspicious of sob stories
So I got someone on the phone a couple of weeks ago who owed a sizeable student loan balance (over 50K, I don't remember exact amount) who had just been laid off from her job as a paralegal the month before. Her husband was retired, she gave me her unemployment salary and cited specific case law as to why she didn't have to give her husband's income levels. Refused to give references - generally being difficult.
I gave the information to my manager, who shook his head. "I've been monitoring the call. Give her the hardship program, tell her it's contingent on the references. No way she can do these payments."
So I pitch her the hardship program, and she thinks that is a great idea. Contact references came easily, she found a fax machine to send the application, and agreed she would call the following Monday to go over the application.
So Monday comes, and she is furious and refuses to sign the application because she has to reveal her husband's income. I try to explain to her that the payments are based from income, and since she and her husband file a joint tax return, they have to base it on both.
"But I can't! Then my payments will be too high! He'll never agree to it."
"But you said he's retired - how much does he get in retirement benefits?"
"Well...he gets 200,000 a year from his company...and another 200,000 a year from investment income...and there's the money from the Swiss bank accounts he's going to have to move due to disclosure laws..."
I tell her I'll see what I can do, and catch my manager coming in from break. Somehow I explain the situation to him with a completely straight face. He stares back at me, blinking a few times before speaking.
"Balance...in full...is due."
I remind him we already sold her the hardship program, so she certainly won't pay us at this point. It's hardship or nothing - any workaround?
Eventually, we had her fill out the paperwork without her husband's signature, and then she can fight and argue with the hardship people and she becomes their problem. So it all worked out.
I was telling this story to my wife, who pointed out I didn't know the whole situation - she may be a trophy wife who doesn't have access to the funds, or there may be other mitigating circumstances. I pointed out she actively lived with her husband, and that being over 40, she probably wasn't a trophy wife. Nope, we got played by someone who knows how to play the system.
(Note - the way that she played the system when employed was to file a cease and desist letter with the company last time we had her account in our office. Our senior collector pointed out the code for cease and desist in the second screen near the end of the first phone call - who knew that's what that meant?)
I was angry for a bit, but then realized I should simply be grateful I got anything from her. In that sense, I won against a game-player. In the end, I can choose to believe or not believe someone's story, and not believing does me no benefit over believing.
So yes, I believed the story when the second person in two days told me he was living in a tent in Washington. And when he gave me lot numbers to the same campground for all of his other references, I dutifully wrote them down. At least he had paper for my phone number.
I gave the information to my manager, who shook his head. "I've been monitoring the call. Give her the hardship program, tell her it's contingent on the references. No way she can do these payments."
So I pitch her the hardship program, and she thinks that is a great idea. Contact references came easily, she found a fax machine to send the application, and agreed she would call the following Monday to go over the application.
So Monday comes, and she is furious and refuses to sign the application because she has to reveal her husband's income. I try to explain to her that the payments are based from income, and since she and her husband file a joint tax return, they have to base it on both.
"But I can't! Then my payments will be too high! He'll never agree to it."
"But you said he's retired - how much does he get in retirement benefits?"
"Well...he gets 200,000 a year from his company...and another 200,000 a year from investment income...and there's the money from the Swiss bank accounts he's going to have to move due to disclosure laws..."
I tell her I'll see what I can do, and catch my manager coming in from break. Somehow I explain the situation to him with a completely straight face. He stares back at me, blinking a few times before speaking.
"Balance...in full...is due."
I remind him we already sold her the hardship program, so she certainly won't pay us at this point. It's hardship or nothing - any workaround?
Eventually, we had her fill out the paperwork without her husband's signature, and then she can fight and argue with the hardship people and she becomes their problem. So it all worked out.
I was telling this story to my wife, who pointed out I didn't know the whole situation - she may be a trophy wife who doesn't have access to the funds, or there may be other mitigating circumstances. I pointed out she actively lived with her husband, and that being over 40, she probably wasn't a trophy wife. Nope, we got played by someone who knows how to play the system.
(Note - the way that she played the system when employed was to file a cease and desist letter with the company last time we had her account in our office. Our senior collector pointed out the code for cease and desist in the second screen near the end of the first phone call - who knew that's what that meant?)
I was angry for a bit, but then realized I should simply be grateful I got anything from her. In that sense, I won against a game-player. In the end, I can choose to believe or not believe someone's story, and not believing does me no benefit over believing.
So yes, I believed the story when the second person in two days told me he was living in a tent in Washington. And when he gave me lot numbers to the same campground for all of his other references, I dutifully wrote them down. At least he had paper for my phone number.
Sunday, February 21, 2010
Another brief snapshot in the life
Got borrower on the phone, first time anyone has spoken to him, and he wasn't scared off by the warning, and says he has no money to pay the bills.
Not a problem, I tell him. Just need to take a brief financial statement - in the current economy I hear from lots of unemployed people. What's your current mailing address?
"Well, I'm living in a tent."
I pause, re-check the number. Yep - Washington State area code. In February.
"Are you still in Washington?"
"Yep. Mighty cold for tent living."
"I can imagine. So..." There is a prescribed order for questions to ask at this point, but I'm throwing it out the window. "So what's your current situation right now?"
Current situation is this: he went to massage therapy school, was three courses shy of graduation, and got into an accident that wrecked his right shoulder and right knee, effectively ending a career in massage therapy. Which wouldn't have been so bad, had his previous career not been carpentry, which clearly with a wrecked right shoulder he can't fall back on.
So, currently, he is living in a tent on property his parents own in Washington. The phone I called his actually his daughter's phone, who lives with his parents, and they pay for the phone. He has no idea how I got the number, nor do I.
We tried to qualify him for a hardship program, but he had no references he could give (hardship program requires two), and he said if he could come up with two references he'll give us a call. "I haven't got any paper, so I'll just scratch your number here in the dirt with a stick. As long as it doesn't rain or snow in the next couple of days I'll give you a call."
Called the next day - phone was disconnected. Forecast for heavy rain in Eastern Washington. I wish him the best of luck.
Not a problem, I tell him. Just need to take a brief financial statement - in the current economy I hear from lots of unemployed people. What's your current mailing address?
"Well, I'm living in a tent."
I pause, re-check the number. Yep - Washington State area code. In February.
"Are you still in Washington?"
"Yep. Mighty cold for tent living."
"I can imagine. So..." There is a prescribed order for questions to ask at this point, but I'm throwing it out the window. "So what's your current situation right now?"
Current situation is this: he went to massage therapy school, was three courses shy of graduation, and got into an accident that wrecked his right shoulder and right knee, effectively ending a career in massage therapy. Which wouldn't have been so bad, had his previous career not been carpentry, which clearly with a wrecked right shoulder he can't fall back on.
So, currently, he is living in a tent on property his parents own in Washington. The phone I called his actually his daughter's phone, who lives with his parents, and they pay for the phone. He has no idea how I got the number, nor do I.
We tried to qualify him for a hardship program, but he had no references he could give (hardship program requires two), and he said if he could come up with two references he'll give us a call. "I haven't got any paper, so I'll just scratch your number here in the dirt with a stick. As long as it doesn't rain or snow in the next couple of days I'll give you a call."
Called the next day - phone was disconnected. Forecast for heavy rain in Eastern Washington. I wish him the best of luck.
Saturday, February 13, 2010
References
Anytime you want to take out a loan, get a new job, or any myriad of other transactions, people want you to give them references. You may say you are one thing, but people want to know if you are who you say you are, or what you've done. People want that contact info to verify the trustworthiness of the person.
In the hands of a bill collector, it's a way to find you.
When we get a loan in our office, we get contact information for the borrower that may or may not be good, useful info. And if we can't reach the borrower at that info, one of the first things we do (or at least I do) is contact references.
Given that the loans I deal with have been in default for years, the references range the gamut:
"Him - oh, hang on, he just walked in the door." (With younger borrowers, this is really common - lots of people moving back in with Mom and Dad right now.)
"Oh geez, he just moved, and I've got his address somewhere. He's hard to reach, now that he's working nights over at the plant in town..." (SCORE! Contact info AND job!)
"I've got her number, but I don't know who you are. So I'll just take a message and pass it on..."
"Wow - haven't seen her in years...I think she moved to Guam...not really sure..."
"HIM? I had a fucking RESTRAINING ORDER filed against that asshole! How the FUCK did you get my number?" (Useful reference type if they actually have contact info and you can convince them you are seeking the borrower out for really awful reasons.)
What can we tell the references? Well, that depends. If the account has documented permission to talk to the references (say, from a program half set-up or a previous program from a different department years ago), then we can talk to them just like they were the borrower.
If there is no documented permission, we can say "personal business matter". That's it. Nothing more. Even though most people can make the stretch that "personal business matter" means "bill collector". They just might not know what for.
"Is this about her car she hasn't paid on? Well, I can tell you y'all ain't gonna get nuthin, cause she wrapped that fucking piece of shit around a tree last week. You wanna repo, y'all better bring a scraper." Click.
Grandparent references are the best, as they often have few suspicions about who you are and why you're trying to reach their grandchild (provided said grandchild isn't in other obvious legal trouble - then they just call you a nasty person and hang up on you). And if the grandchild is delinquent about calling or staying in touch (When was the last time you called YOUR grandmother? Don't you want to go call her right now? I'm sure she's worried about you.), any excuse to call is a welcome one. :)
I spoke with a grandmother the other day about a borrower. "Oh, yes...such a sweet *COUGH COUGH* child. I would be happy to *COUGH COUGH* take a message to give her." Pause of coughing and retching sounds. "Sorry about that - the pneumonia's bad this year. And I have to write slow, so be patient - the Parkinson's is worse in the winter..."
Yep, I was feeling about two inches tall right then. Did I leave the message? You bet I did. In that far, may as well finish the job. And she had her excuse to call her granddaughter, which made her so happy. She even thanked me at the end of the call.
However, the "sweet" granddaughter was significantly less happy with us when she called in the next day and found out who we were.
"What the FUCK is wrong with you fucking people that you are calling my SICK FUCKING GRANDMOTHER about my student loan? YOU HAVE my fucking phone number. There is NO FUCKING NEED to call my SICK AND POSSIBLY FUCKING DYING GRANDMOTHER."
Actually, we don't have your phone number. Is this the best number to reach you on? And yes, we will make sure not to call your grandmother again.
It turned out her loan had been with a different collection agency, and had been transferred to us while in process of setting something up with them. The other collection agency failed to give us the updated info along with the account. We updated information and sent her a letter, but I have a suspicion she will never settle her loan with us.
Because if she calls in (or I call her) to set up payment arrangements...I'm going to need to update references.
In the hands of a bill collector, it's a way to find you.
When we get a loan in our office, we get contact information for the borrower that may or may not be good, useful info. And if we can't reach the borrower at that info, one of the first things we do (or at least I do) is contact references.
Given that the loans I deal with have been in default for years, the references range the gamut:
"Him - oh, hang on, he just walked in the door." (With younger borrowers, this is really common - lots of people moving back in with Mom and Dad right now.)
"Oh geez, he just moved, and I've got his address somewhere. He's hard to reach, now that he's working nights over at the plant in town..." (SCORE! Contact info AND job!)
"I've got her number, but I don't know who you are. So I'll just take a message and pass it on..."
"Wow - haven't seen her in years...I think she moved to Guam...not really sure..."
"HIM? I had a fucking RESTRAINING ORDER filed against that asshole! How the FUCK did you get my number?" (Useful reference type if they actually have contact info and you can convince them you are seeking the borrower out for really awful reasons.)
What can we tell the references? Well, that depends. If the account has documented permission to talk to the references (say, from a program half set-up or a previous program from a different department years ago), then we can talk to them just like they were the borrower.
If there is no documented permission, we can say "personal business matter". That's it. Nothing more. Even though most people can make the stretch that "personal business matter" means "bill collector". They just might not know what for.
"Is this about her car she hasn't paid on? Well, I can tell you y'all ain't gonna get nuthin, cause she wrapped that fucking piece of shit around a tree last week. You wanna repo, y'all better bring a scraper." Click.
Grandparent references are the best, as they often have few suspicions about who you are and why you're trying to reach their grandchild (provided said grandchild isn't in other obvious legal trouble - then they just call you a nasty person and hang up on you). And if the grandchild is delinquent about calling or staying in touch (When was the last time you called YOUR grandmother? Don't you want to go call her right now? I'm sure she's worried about you.), any excuse to call is a welcome one. :)
I spoke with a grandmother the other day about a borrower. "Oh, yes...such a sweet *COUGH COUGH* child. I would be happy to *COUGH COUGH* take a message to give her." Pause of coughing and retching sounds. "Sorry about that - the pneumonia's bad this year. And I have to write slow, so be patient - the Parkinson's is worse in the winter..."
Yep, I was feeling about two inches tall right then. Did I leave the message? You bet I did. In that far, may as well finish the job. And she had her excuse to call her granddaughter, which made her so happy. She even thanked me at the end of the call.
However, the "sweet" granddaughter was significantly less happy with us when she called in the next day and found out who we were.
"What the FUCK is wrong with you fucking people that you are calling my SICK FUCKING GRANDMOTHER about my student loan? YOU HAVE my fucking phone number. There is NO FUCKING NEED to call my SICK AND POSSIBLY FUCKING DYING GRANDMOTHER."
Actually, we don't have your phone number. Is this the best number to reach you on? And yes, we will make sure not to call your grandmother again.
It turned out her loan had been with a different collection agency, and had been transferred to us while in process of setting something up with them. The other collection agency failed to give us the updated info along with the account. We updated information and sent her a letter, but I have a suspicion she will never settle her loan with us.
Because if she calls in (or I call her) to set up payment arrangements...I'm going to need to update references.
A brief snapshot in the life
Putting my legal training to work, I was able to quickly find an appellate court opinion published online about one of the borrowers I was trying to find. And interpret it to find out that the court determined the search of his car was unconstitutional, so the charge of possession of methamphetamines must be dropped.
Given also that the DUI charge was based on the meth found in the car (as opposed to the erratic driving that took out his neighbor's mailbox, and the neighbor's testimony as an EMT as to the driver's condition while happily chatting with the neighbor and trying to accelerate over the mailbox to free the car), that charge must also be dropped, and the case remanded back to the lower court.
Presumably, the charges remaining have to do with the borrower biting a police officer in the leg and attempting to remove the taser from the officer's belt. This happened after he'd been pulled over for sideswiping a guard rail following the mailbox incident, and arrested for DUI.
I was laughing when my manager came over and looked over my shoulder, and I told him what I'd found. "Funny, but did you learn anything useful?"
"Yep - the appellate opinion confirms the home address of the borrower. But, given it's a 2009 decision, I'm guessing he's in jail over this right now."
He nodded. "Yeah - I wouldn't waste too much time on it. Small balance anyway."
And I thought I had problems...
Given also that the DUI charge was based on the meth found in the car (as opposed to the erratic driving that took out his neighbor's mailbox, and the neighbor's testimony as an EMT as to the driver's condition while happily chatting with the neighbor and trying to accelerate over the mailbox to free the car), that charge must also be dropped, and the case remanded back to the lower court.
Presumably, the charges remaining have to do with the borrower biting a police officer in the leg and attempting to remove the taser from the officer's belt. This happened after he'd been pulled over for sideswiping a guard rail following the mailbox incident, and arrested for DUI.
I was laughing when my manager came over and looked over my shoulder, and I told him what I'd found. "Funny, but did you learn anything useful?"
"Yep - the appellate opinion confirms the home address of the borrower. But, given it's a 2009 decision, I'm guessing he's in jail over this right now."
He nodded. "Yeah - I wouldn't waste too much time on it. Small balance anyway."
And I thought I had problems...
Saturday, February 6, 2010
And H&R Block will still want to be paid
One of the major selling points for getting a student loan back into good standing in the past month or so has been tax returns. If we get you into a rehabilitation program NOW, then you can file your taxes and get your return when you find out the tax lien has been lifted. Often, that is enough to get people to sign right up.
Now, we're getting the phone calls of those who filed early, had dreams of spending that money of stuff, only to find it's going to pay for a student loan. So here's the phone number to call.
These calls are not nearly so much fun, since the answer of what we can do is simple: nothing. WE, as a company, did not take your return. We do not have that kind of power. The guarantor took the funds, we are the messengers only.
And no, they will not give them back. Have your spouse file a form, and you might get their portion of the return back. Maybe.
Yes, you can tell me how you need the money for your sick mother, or your house burnt down, or you needed it for security deposit so you won't be living on the street. I can still do absolutely nothing for you. Sorry. Start paying, and I assure you that you won't lose them next year.
Of course, my colleagues tell me that half the stories are lies anyway - people will tell debt collectors anything to try and get through and get what they want. And that may be true - I don't know. I don't know them.
A depressing topic, and a reminder I need to deal with my own taxes this year, which I am NOT looking forward to. Off to do housework, as I have the full weekend off for the first time in recent memory.
Now, we're getting the phone calls of those who filed early, had dreams of spending that money of stuff, only to find it's going to pay for a student loan. So here's the phone number to call.
These calls are not nearly so much fun, since the answer of what we can do is simple: nothing. WE, as a company, did not take your return. We do not have that kind of power. The guarantor took the funds, we are the messengers only.
And no, they will not give them back. Have your spouse file a form, and you might get their portion of the return back. Maybe.
Yes, you can tell me how you need the money for your sick mother, or your house burnt down, or you needed it for security deposit so you won't be living on the street. I can still do absolutely nothing for you. Sorry. Start paying, and I assure you that you won't lose them next year.
Of course, my colleagues tell me that half the stories are lies anyway - people will tell debt collectors anything to try and get through and get what they want. And that may be true - I don't know. I don't know them.
A depressing topic, and a reminder I need to deal with my own taxes this year, which I am NOT looking forward to. Off to do housework, as I have the full weekend off for the first time in recent memory.
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